Fruit Cart Flicks
Fruit Cart Flicks
Apocalypse Now: Final Cut - Part 2
More deep-diving with Ken into "Apocalypse Now: Final Cut".
Mike plays "What Kind of Guy Are You?" for a look at movies with similar themes that Ken leans toward.
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Hey folks. So Ken and I just barely touched the surface with All Things Apocalypse Now. So we decided to divide it up into two episodes. And thanks to his knowledge and in depth research prior to the recording, it really turned out great. He also re read Heart of Darkness recently and this certainly added to the final product. So we are new to this and we just want to grow and learn and the only way we can do that is with your feedback. We want to stay unique, but we also want to stay informed with podcast etiquette as more podcasters and listeners out there add to the community. So part two of Apocalypse Now Final Cut is in the can and now here for your ear holes and away we go. Continue on Ken you know I just it's so insightful and it's so fresh in my memory and I'm trying to sort of transport myself a little bit to when I first saw it on VHS in 1992. I'll just say the first time I saw it, period as the listeners who listened to our first episode, no, I worked at three video stores and I got a free movie for every shift.
Ken Tabacchi :Cool.
Michael Green :I saved a buck 50 Can Can you believe it? That's three Dell tacos. I mean, come on. We were talking about shell shock and the how convincing it was and how representative it was of the tone of the movie.
Ken Tabacchi :Yes, if you see the insanity you listen To this recording, at the beginning, they play this recording to Martin Sheen when they're trying to convince him to take the mission. And it's really just a tortured man tortured by war. And the army wants to assassinate him for going crazy. How ironic is that? Very, very the general says he was a humanitarian man. And out there with these natives, it must be a temptation to be a god. And this is what Conrad is saying as well, that he talks about, you know, being human in the novel. Going up the Congo is a metaphor for going back in time. The farther up river they go. The more back in time they go, the more back to savage human tribes and behavior. He starts he starts to witness
Michael Green :their regressing
Ken Tabacchi :very significant in it. They they referenced this in the movie where Sheen says weeks away hundreds of miles up a river that snake through the water like a main circuit circuit cable plugged straight into Kurtz. So here's the analogy of the snake or the cable.
Michael Green :Just regression in the heart and mind.
Ken Tabacchi :Well, yeah, not so much a regression. What they're saying is this human nature is still there to yes to regress to our more base primal instinct it's still there. We're not we're not evolved past that.
Michael Green :And I like how you brought up a full metal jacket cuz you know that that's a beloved movie. as a as a war film, specifically, I think of Apocalypse Now as the quintessential war film. Not so much Full Metal Jacket, because there's something else going on there where that's more on the conventional lines of being a I hate to use the word standard, but relatively standard war film
Ken Tabacchi :in full metal It Right? It's, I consider that a war movie. Consider that Kubrick's attempt to make a war movie. He had made a couple Paths of Glory.
Michael Green :Dr. Strangelove, oh, he definitely had the chops to do it. But there were just some moments in that movie that took me away from the unlike Apocalypse Now. For example, when the documentarians and Full Metal Jacket is asking the soldiers who are neatly lined up, they're asking them questions and they have these perfectly rehearsed answers. It just didn't ring true to me.
Ken Tabacchi :Did you notice how Hello Matthew Modine is is framed in front of a movie theater where the Red River is, is shown on a poster john john, john wayne.
Michael Green :You know what I noticed? I forgot that I noticed that now that you mentioned, I forgot that I noticed it recently. And I forgot to bring it up.
Ken Tabacchi :By the way we need to get ahead of the trolls and that are going to comment first comment will be what snooty and pretentious. So, I move that we rename the podcast to this snooty and pretentious podcast. And I shall be snooty and you shall be pretentious, or did you want to be snooty?
Michael Green :It kind of has like this, this indomitable barrier that nobody that is immune to criticism because we already have the title of snooty and pretentious. So I, I hear you, you know, I and I brought this up that Ken folks a couple weeks ago when I was reading some podcast reviews of other podcasters movie podcasters. And it was unfair to use that kind of terminology because what is snooty and pretentious? I mean, if when you use those words that most likely you are yourself snooty and pretentious you in order to recognize that you must be you transcend the content that you're speaking of, or no, I don't get it.
Ken Tabacchi :I love the Family Guy. The discussion where they're, I think they're like in a in a building that's flooding and they're having a discussion about the Godfather, and how Peter doesn't like it. How can you not like it a classic American cinema? Well the best movies ever made. He says I don't like it. It insists upon itself. What does that even mean? Oh my gosh it's
Michael Green :upon itself you bring that up. Now remember it I've heard that line like maybe twice in my life it insists upon itself Oh, and then it is too self congratulatory here that how
Ken Tabacchi :do you how does the movie packets Pat itself on the back self
Michael Green :congratulatory? Gosh,
Ken Tabacchi :I hate this movie because it's popular.
Michael Green :Sure, I got it. Okay. And we're kind of taking a leisurely kind of stroll before we continue on with Apocalypse Now, but I gotta admit, when the matrix came out in 1998 I was a bit snooty and pretentious about big budget movies. I will say that I will admit that I was in this kind of
Ken Tabacchi :way. It's one of my it's my guilty pleasure movie
Michael Green :while I was in this boycott frame of mind, like oh, you know, sure. Look at it. It's super it's super mean. stream CGI. And you know, it's got some cool martial arts and, you know, but I stopped my later 20s I'm like, No, come on,
Ken Tabacchi :go watch Rob Ager, his YouTube channel because he goes back and he's such he's such a fine analyst of movies, but he goes back into the predator, the matrix, Indiana Jones and all these movies which kind of got out, you know maybe overlooked due to big budget Hollywood but he says he's looking at all these themes and he's diehard you know, go watch him he's, I don't I don't want to watch this material and then feel like I'm copying it which is maybe why he made analysis and I tried not to say things but if I do mention something, an idea I got from him. I'm gonna I'm gonna quote him as the source
Michael Green :got it. And I look forward to that. So I got to own a take sort of mid session. little fun, have a little fun segment, kind of a surprise segment for you can notice continue on. How's that? Okay
Ken Tabacchi :need a break from this snooty and pretentious movie analysis
Michael Green :necessary for for our minds and brains right now to kind of go on to something and it's not really related to Apocalypse Now but I thought I'd throw it in because I want to ask you what kind of guy or gal are you? And basically I'm going to throw two movies your way not necessarily the same genre most are and you're just going to tell me which kind of guy you are. And then if you want give me a slight or a little explanation to that, so are you Ken, a casino guy or a Goodfellas guy?
Ken Tabacchi :Good fellas
Michael Green :Are you a Rain Man guy or a Forrest Gump guy?
Ken Tabacchi :This is like the the eye exams what is number one and number two. Can I see them again please? I recently watched Forrest Gump and I had introduced it to my kids. So I have a soft spot. What in my heart however, and Tom Hanks is amazing. However, Dustin Hoffman is amazing-er. See how I made that not snooty.
Michael Green :Yeah, amazing. are okay? And are you a godfather guy or a godfather to guy?
Ken Tabacchi :Two. I think two is a better movie. However one wins for being the groundbreaker. And some of the similar cinematography in this the the blocking is in one is pretty amazing as well.
Michael Green :But one of those rare episodes I say episode because it actually in some ways kind of becomes a crowning achievement over its predecessor in some way
Ken Tabacchi :How do you even do that? I mean, exactly. How do you take a movie like the Godfather and improve upon it? Amazing. Now he didn't want a movie that insists upon itself.
Michael Green :Okay, so are you A my next one Are you a breakfast club guy or a saint almost fire guy.
Ken Tabacchi :I recently saw The Breakfast Club you know, however I remember like I showed this to the kids Oh, this is like solely 1980s and we all watched it and it didn't have the same effect in either of these movies. It had the same effect on me. I think there was a time in place The time has passed. I'm gonna say neutral. Okay.
Michael Green :And is that perhaps because it's as time goes by they become dated?
Ken Tabacchi :I don't think they've they've said they've stood up well to time cut it. It was it was it was a interesting view or microcosm at the time, but kind of like Ferris Bueller. This this this just isn't sure applicable.
Michael Green :Next, are you a as maybe easy for you? I didn't exactly customizes because I wanted to get your on the spot. Answers reactions without preparation can So, are you a Martin Scorsese guy or a Steven Spielberg guy? Scorsese? Are you a Naked Gun guy or a police academy guy?
Ken Tabacchi :It's the same movie. It's like feel like that mean they're the same picture.
Michael Green :Although Zucker brothers have that signature um
Ken Tabacchi :yeah. I like them both.
Michael Green :Are you a Meet the Parents guy or Tropic Thunder Guy
Ken Tabacchi :nzme Tropic Thunder
Michael Green :Turner? Are you a Braveheart guy or Gladiator
Ken Tabacchi :guy? Gladiator.
Michael Green :Now, can I take a guess why is it really Scott cinematography, really Scott cinematography. I've always been memory mesmerized by his cinematography. And those washed out that in those washed out monochromatic tones Just coupled with the way he shoots the action scenes,
Ken Tabacchi :the testosterone is there without being repulsive. Braveheart is is a glimpse into Mel Gibson psyche. And my gosh, it's pretty disturbing the ending. Right That feeling Gladiator.
Michael Green :Right? And one more for you. This may be an easy one. Are you a tombstone guy or a white guy?
Ken Tabacchi :Oh, I love tombstone. decodable. Little Paxton, by the way, I when you said Jason Patrick and I said tombstone I was thinking of Bill Paxton.
Michael Green :I do have that similarity. I still can't believe he's not around with us rest in peace. But Kurt Russell,
Ken Tabacchi :love him as the bad guy as the
Michael Green :as the badass protagonists in the Old West. Mind you It just kind of it elevates another notch. another notch with that walrus mustache.
Ken Tabacchi :And then the same actor in Big Lebowski. What was that guy's name?
Michael Green :That would be the one and only Sam Elliott.
Ken Tabacchi :Yeah.
Michael Green :Oh, it was awesome. Okay, let me let me let me entertain you for a bit. You got that says Burleigh.
Ken Tabacchi :got that right away. Can you do Jesus?
Michael Green :Oh, I could if I prepare a little bit john Turturro Nobody beats the Jesus. You know they made a movie like a spin off of that. Really? JOHN Turturro? Yeah, basically basically he is the lead role, his character. It's just got her rific review so don't bother.
Ken Tabacchi :Too bad. Yeah, he works so well as supporting after
Michael Green :all the country. Ultimate chameleon ultimate
Ken Tabacchi :we thought they turned you into a toad. No they never did turn me into though. Your kid your kid sold us out. You take that back beat I sold you out. They got this depression on
Michael Green :food can the southern gang you go
Ken Tabacchi :Hey, I lived in the south for two years. So I tell you what
Michael Green :do you what Americans do that impersonation? They just go real drawl having to do cowboy? Or Billy Bob Thornton. Rick, can you make me some biscuits? Yes, my Oh. Okay, well, let's jump back back into it. But before we get into more of the meat and potatoes, I have a question. actually more of a comment. And this is just outside with about the production itself. You know I thought that when I, when I found this out later, I thought Martin Sheen was doing the voiceover throughout the entire movie.
Ken Tabacchi :Yes. And I saw it was credited to whom
Michael Green :his brother who sounds identical. And wow, when I was listening to a movie away, and it's not just like, you know, the fact that they, you know, it just so happens. He sounds identical to Martin Sheen, but the delivery was pretty good. And as far as I know, he's a non actor. So it really talks about, you know, scoring big time. lockwise you know, and getting such a great performance because that that narration is pivotal to the success of the movie.
Ken Tabacchi :Yes, yes, I totally agree. NARRATION often is criticized, but in a movie like this or Goodfellas, it's completely necessary.
Michael Green :And he had to do that in post so I think Martin Sheen, was already recovered after the heart attack
Ken Tabacchi :and had other Yes, he came as well during their In the filming, he had to take several weeks off. And then he came back, like, you know, half day schedules and eventually came back. What was the thing with the bandage over his cheek in the cut? And he makes and they they focus on this at the dinner table with the French he's looking at this cut on his face the scar in a butter knife. What was that all about?
Michael Green :I mean, the significance of it or just the cut itself?
Ken Tabacchi :Or were they just hiding? The fact that he had cut it was that did that happen during the mirror smashing scene?
Michael Green :It was the mirror smashing scene? Yes. And I can I can't say that with absolute certainty. But I remember reading about that a couple years back. So most likely that
Ken Tabacchi :but why did they call attention to it? Where he looks at himself in the butterknife?
Michael Green :Good question. That's one for our listeners to chime in and leave us some feedback and please do so. Okay, and correct us without sounding sturdy and pretentious. You Oh how tone of voice especially in all caps.
Ken Tabacchi :I wonder if listeners get my my sarcasm. I'm sure they did in the fact that I'm being sarcastic about 90% of the time, although I don't I never change my tone or my delivery. It throws people sometimes
Michael Green :it's important to be consistent with your vocal delivery, especially when you're discussing such grand detail, my man. Okay, well, thanks for answering that and commenting on that. But I wanted to also bring up the one of the most famous lines in the movie, who, which was uttered by a producer of the film. And I want to ask you about the line itself, what it means exactly, I mean, on the surface, I know what it means. But I really want to know the deep meaning and the, the essence of it. And that's the line terminate with extreme prejudice.
Ken Tabacchi :It's just a phrase, that it's just a you euphemism for kill somebody in military speak.
Michael Green :But why is it somewhat made to be like almost a euphemism?
Ken Tabacchi :Like, no, you don't just fire him from his position. You make sure he never comes back again. It's the extreme prejudice. You don't you don't think about the morality you just do it. Okay? Damn it.
Michael Green :So like when you're sending a hitman out, you know, they can't have any sympathy. And, you know, one track mind only and that's kill mission.
Ken Tabacchi :Yes. Okay. So they were interviewing him to see if he was the guy. He has the salt because there was a previous guy Colby who succumbed to the heart of darkness and he becomes part of the culture of the tribe or whatever that is. He gets assimilated in and he has a little family and he writes a note, you know, scrawled note back to his his wife that gets intercepted by Tom Cech and it says sell the house. Sell the kids at all, I never coming home scratched out home. I never coming back. So this is like his new home.
Michael Green :extreme prejudice. Good movie with McNulty, by the way, like 85
Ken Tabacchi :Oh, yeah, Shane says he was being groomed for one of the top slots in the corporation. But he refers to this politics, the government or the military branch as the corporation, which really implies the trading companies, the ivory trading companies in Africa. Okay. European. So that's another tie back to the novella. really brilliant. I hadn't picked up on this the first time through. Neil's did an amazing job.
Michael Green :And you know, I always get a little disturbed when I hear the word groomed. In that context, like, you know, whether you're watching a documentary on YouTube and you hear that word, and it just
Ken Tabacchi :is grooming him for the for the first CEO position, which means you've got somebody in in power That you can control as a puppet. Right? And he wasn't going to be that he was going to be his own guy. And that, in fact was his downfall.
Michael Green :Very, very well said. And I wanted to mention how the performance of Robert Duvall grabbed him or nabbed him an Oscar nomination. Do you know how many minutes he was on screen? in total? less than five? No more than that. Less than 1011 minutes. Mm hmm. Got the Oscar nomination. However, I thought this was a record breaker. VHS straight and network at five minutes and 40 seconds of screen time and won the Academy Award for Best Actress.
Ken Tabacchi :Supporting
Michael Green :Best Supporting Actress. Yeah, that didn't win but it's just a testament to how the impact of every second he was on screen how that mattered. Today The Academy, like I said,
Ken Tabacchi :totally memorable character in cinema history. There are a few moments like that. And this is one of them.
Michael Green :And to me, not very liked of all to play very masculine testosterone charged,
Ken Tabacchi :well coming off of the Godfather, where he's constantly airy,
Michael Green :fairy passive, and
Ken Tabacchi :behind the scenes passive, he wield power, but it was all behind the scenes.
Michael Green :And I believe his debut was just 10 years or 12 years before that. And To Kill a Mockingbird as boo breathy and had no lines I believe.
Ken Tabacchi :You know that that scene was not at all tied back to the novel in terms of killed gore's character. That was something that they added. And it probably allowed Robert Duvall to develop that.
Michael Green :Which scene are you talking about?
Ken Tabacchi :Anything the scenes was killed or,
Michael Green :Oh, really? All this?
Ken Tabacchi :There's no there's no character like that. There is Dennis Hopper's character in the novel. And in the He's a Russian guy in the novel, but a lot of things same things are said he jumps on board. He asked for tobacco. He he quotes, he's clear in his mind, but his soul is mad. You don't speak to him you listen. He alludes to Kurt's his poetry, which he might have written. Now he he's reading poetry and then in the novel, Kurtz actually wrote poetry. So that Dennis hoppers character is cop pulled right out of the novel, but not Robert duels.
Michael Green :Now, that scene where the wounded villager has his guts is
Ken Tabacchi :literally holding his guts. That's great because it shows how he's being compassionate. But yet, when he finds out there's a famous surfer, he says he completely forgets about him,
Michael Green :right? Completely. That scene is based on fact, which fact the fact that there was a wounded villager literally holding their guts in with a lid of a pot. Now, I don't know about the internet. With with a colonel or another military officer, but that in itself was
Ken Tabacchi :based on fact. Interesting from what from a story about one of the soldiers. Right. Right. And interesting to find that little factoid.
Michael Green :Okay. I wanted to talk a little bit about the door soundtrack. And you probably have some interesting things to say about that. Because my understanding is that a couple have met Jim Morrison, and actually asked him in advance to use his song for a war film. And this was of course, before he passed away, having sort of in his mind that he would utilize that song for
Ken Tabacchi :that particular song
Michael Green :right in the end, which ironically starts the movie.
Ken Tabacchi :That's cool. I didn't you haven't you ever listen to a song and said, Man, this would be a scene based on this would be so awesome. You move the scene. A movie around the song. Yeah, then a thing. That's what happened. But sometimes don't you get that feeling sometimes or you're listening to a certain song?
Michael Green :Yes. And I think the, you know, we mentioned about tropes, how sometimes whether it happens so often that it becomes a trope, or whether it's just done so often within a short period of time, but we're talking with war movies over decades of time. They use those songs to like in a helicopter in born the Fourth of July and Forrest Gump. These are songs by Creedence Clearwater Revival that tell you when you're listening to him without the movie, it reminds you of a scene from a warm movie, peanut black. And I think it's quite quite fitting. When you listen to a soundtrack. Let's say you have the actual soundtrack for this, you know, this movie or full metal jacket or the Godfather. When you're listening to that. Are you thinking of the movie? Let's say that There's a song that's both in, for example, Goodfellas and the Godfather. You know, which one does it pull you into? Or does it pull you into both?
Ken Tabacchi :I think if there's not, there's no union of the tracks from those movies. You just saying, for example, yeah, one or the other.
Michael Green :Never a union.
Ken Tabacchi :Do I sometimes I think about the movie. Yeah. I think the movie evokes the soundtrack, and not vice versa, at least for me.
Michael Green :So when you hear rags to riches don't you always think of Goodfellas
Ken Tabacchi :Good point, because I had never heard that song outside of the context of the movie Goodfellas. However, some of the other tracks in there, the Rolling Stones stuff predates my exposure to Goodfellas. In those cases, I don't, but in the case of a sound like rags to riches, for sure. I'm thinking. I'm thinking of Tommy and Henry in their, you know, cheesy suits, knocking over a truck driver. diner, you know that scene just proof? right into my mind. So,
Michael Green :yeah, good point only because I have it sort of deeply etched, and, and you make the point of all if it predates or if my exposure to it, you know was before that I had limited exposure to that soundtrack or to the songs in that movie before 1990 I'm talking about Goodfellas, but after since then, I think of nothing other than not just the movie, but of that specific scene.
Ken Tabacchi :That whole movie speaks to me with, you know, all the food and the culture references. I feel like that is a part of my history, not the crime part, but some of the other Italian American stereotypes and tropes seem to ring true. For me at least. And speaking of tropes, Ken
Michael Green :Wouldn't you say that in a way that Coppola created his own trope. Starting with the Godfather, which one?
Ken Tabacchi :Sure. I mean, he Leoni made fun of that fact. He's of his own Trump. But I mean, you can't really you can't really help that is a senior either works or it doesn't. And it works in a big way becomes Trumpy. Everyone copies it right?
Michael Green :And it has to ring true and therefore it has to be somewhat trophy. Whether it's cheaply done or if it's done with finesse it, it occurs because it happens it's a cliche because it happens.
Ken Tabacchi :The cliche and the trope is not bad in itself. It's the treatment of it.
Michael Green :Sure, that matters. You're on fire.
Ken Tabacchi :We are getting a little snooty and pretentious.
Michael Green :Oh, well, you know, music is so essential and I loved discussing with you about Ennio Morricone and the significance and beauty of his score and how it was just too Perfect. When I think of songs that are specifically chosen, and we talked about Quentin Tarantino in the songs, how he, he's somewhat taken, he's known for that he, he takes these, these actors who have not worked in a while word, maybe this little song that hasn't had enough exposure, and he puts it out there. And it just becomes permanent In popular culture. But since we're talking, discussing specifically a war movie, and not just any war movie, those scenes and the doors I, there's a lot of movies I've seen with doors, songs, but I always think when I hear the end, I think of Apocalypse Now.
Ken Tabacchi :He plays the end of the beginning, he booked, he booked ends the movie with that song. Right. So in the novel, The people who I don't know if they enslaved them, or they just pay them pinnable wages, but there's tribes of people on the Congo and they end up being workers on the boats are at the stations where they collect the ivory. And one of his one of his guys is helps him navigate. And he he's in a tribe of cannibals actually. So all the white guys on the phone are afraid of them running out of meat because what what may happen in their sleep, they actually bring some spoiled Hippo meat onto the boat onto the steamship. And one of the managers throws it overboard because it just stinks so horribly. And when you see a fish jump, you know the cannibals are just kind of like getting so excited. And he makes a comment, catch them, catch them, give us you know, in whatever English He can speak. He's got one guy who helps them navigate and he directly parallels to the boat captain. What was his name on the river boat in the movie, but there's exactly the scene where they get close to Kurtz and all these arrows, the native start shooting throws at them. And the managers on board start shooting off. They're either muskets or whatever they have. And his navigator gets so, so excited. And he stops up and down and he opens the door and he starts shouting at them and a spear comes in and skewers him. So right from the movie, and he falls over and there's blood, so much blood such that Marlowe, who's the protagonist in the book, wants to he takes off his shoes and just throws them away like a new pair of shoes and he feels so guilty. And before he kind of first known as a foolish man, and then after his dead, he feel sorry for him. So he feels guilt about what how he treated this man. But he throws him over to the dismay of the other cannibals on board because they're thinking this could be a meal. So the animal sacrifice is just a tie back to all of that kind of tribal culture and See how it's it's it's an allegory for what happens to Kurtz. However, I think that's pretty broad. That's that's, that's pretty obvious. I think it more. I always think of it more tied back to the novel, this tribe, the mountain yard. Army, who lives and watching are people who live in isolation and in their own little tribal culture really cut off from the world and Cambodia. That's my take on it.
Michael Green :Everything is on the surface. It's pretty overt, you know, with Colonel Kurtz.
Ken Tabacchi :In fact, in fact, in the beginning, when they when he has lunch with the general, there's a long hold on the meat. So I just thought of that, that that ties back. There's a huge thing of roast beef for just the four people and then the shrimp and if you eat it, you'll never have to prove your courage again. It was a problem that he showed up very overweight and how are you going to How are you going to portray a soldier? Who's that out of shape? How is that even possible? And so I think the solution really worked, though, because he just kept him in the shadows. He never really showed his full profile. Except for maybe one instance,
Michael Green :you got to ask yourself in the storyboard work was the were those shadows there? When Coppola had that script, and we have this lean and fit,
Ken Tabacchi :I think it was a solution to the problem at hand, which ended up working really well. In fact, if you look at when Martin Sheen comes out of the cave, after having murdered cards, he's filmed all in shadow as well. So the analogy becomes, oh, he's accepted the Heart of Darkness.
Michael Green :That's a great point. The shadows are already there. Now does that to signify that the character's demeanor and murderous instinct is
Ken Tabacchi :similar, or similar always. They're under the surface if you watch him throughout, he's kind of sad. Apart from the group, and the guys that are Murrell get destroyed the boat captain clean. Lawrence Fitz fish burns, character chef are all destroyed by going back in time into the savagery and only Lance and Captain Willard survive. And so you see this when they when they approach the boat the junk boat and harass the civilians that are carrying rice and vegetables and ducks and chef is forced to to board the boat and then a mistake causes them to get completely merged and slaughtered. Sheen comes up this is a she's still moving. We got to take her to some some some friendlies in the hospital. It's the rules. He pulls out his gun, bang and he murders her and it's not to show him as the badass cowboy kind of character is to show his callousness already there for my sins. I was given a mission. Okay, so it's already in him. And Lance, you see him developing this. This can callousness throughout the trip he comes up as a he starts out as a fair haired surfer boy. But then you see him doing more and more horrible things. Right? Right, right, you know with the Playboy show, he's you bitch. You know, he's screaming that he takes the dog from them and after after clean gets killed in the battle, what does he do with the dog? Oh, we got to go back and find that dog. Okay, so he's got it in him too. And when he's sitting at the dinner table with the French and he he's just he's a scarfing down he reaches over he knocks over someone Hey, take it easy, okay, okay. You know, he, you see, you see that in him where the other guys the war and the Heart of Darkness drives them crazy drives them to insanity and eventually devours them. And the only guys who survive are the two who can separate in their mind. The good from the evil and when each are necessary. What's his name? Lance, even he gets into the cult, he's wearing a loincloth. He's jumping around, he's playing with the kids like he's, he's drinking the Kool Aid. And at the end, Martin Sheen grabs him and said, he pulls him out. Let's go. But he doesn't do the same to Colby because Kobe is too far gone.
Michael Green :So in essence, this that essentially means that it all ended up working for the sake of the character development for not just Kurtz, but for the others as well.
Ken Tabacchi :We don't you know, we're not introduced to Kurt's very much just at the end and very little and I wonder
Michael Green :if that was because that, you know, aside from, aside from the fact that it was too expensive to have Marlon Brando on set, well, getting around the weight gain with shadows and with camera, special camera angles. I just thought that well. A couple of improvisation of making him like this sort of this god of the village, eating mangoes and pineapples that worked out but We're talking at pounds he gained can. And so they had to use deep shadows. And seriously dark shadows. Yeah, and but it works to a degree. There are some things where I thought it's too much I look at you to see a profile shot and just, you know, but it ended up working completely a
Ken Tabacchi :little bit. But some of these images are iconic, though. When you say the cinematographer, definitely,
Michael Green :definitely. And it's, you know, I don't use the word happy accident, often but less of an accident and more of just a auspicious result.
Ken Tabacchi :Sure. What about Dennis hoppers character? And his conflicts with Brando? Was he on drugs? Was he the same guy and Easy Rider or what was he doing?
Michael Green :You know, I don't know. I don't want to speculate but I just hoppers a bit notorious for that. So but then again, Brando's more notorious for his sort of onset antics and I you know, here Here's what I say about that, Ken. And I'll say this because Brando was in The Godfather, you would think there would be a degree of respect for the person that directed you five years before and created will help to create one of the most iconic performances of all time.
Ken Tabacchi :He was a little bit of hubris on Brando's part,
Michael Green :so to ask for that amount of money, he should have just, I don't know, take a pay cut. I mean, a lot of actors do that these days to work with great directors, would it really have been a huge deal for him to do that? And I can't help but think that but I try to keep that out of my mind when I'm watching the film.
Ken Tabacchi :So it doesn't affect me. Yes. Yes. Yeah. For the most part. I just have I just have one more point. It actually ties back to later in the movie where, you know, what is the what is the cause? When he's gonna call in the airstrike, it's all mighty. And all 90 standing by so Almighty the Almighty, quote unquote, calls out to Martin Sheen's character, what does he do? He turns the radio off. So he he's already been, you know, perverted by the Heart of Darkness. And right before that you see a scene where they hold on some of Curtis books. There's two books of poetry. And there's the Holy Bible.
Michael Green :Wow. Not too heavy handed with the symbolism too.
Ken Tabacchi :No, no, not at all. In fact, the horror comment comes right out of the novel. I wanted to read a little bit from that for context.
Michael Green :Sure, please do so.
Ken Tabacchi :Anything approaching the change that came over his features I have never seen before. And hope never to see again. Oh, I wasn't touched. I was fascinated. This was as tough a bill had been rent. I saw on that already. Face the expression of somber pride of ruthless power of craving, terror of an intense and hopeless desire. Did he live his life again in every detail of desire, temptation, and surrender during the supreme moment of complete knowledge? He cried in a whisper at some image at some vision, he cried out twice a cry that was no more than a breath, the horror, the horror,
Michael Green :and truly just pensive, introspective dialogue. And that's why and this was part of the narration. That was that what you just read narrated in the movie? Not to my recollection.
Ken Tabacchi :No, he just says the line. The last line is the hammer.
Michael Green :Yeah, that last line. Ken Did you know maybe you already knew this, but there are 230 hours of footage. I mean, to imagine how they were able to squeeze it down.
Ken Tabacchi :That's that's the Redux version. That's my What was it? 345, maybe the Redux version?
Michael Green :Yeah, somewhere around there. But there's originally 230 hours of footage. So
Ken Tabacchi :how long did it take him to edit? I don't know, a long time. It was like a 717 weeks shooting schedule. It ballooned into about 17 or 18 months.
Michael Green :Yeah. And here, we think that perhaps that directors who are very successful after a big hit, like the Godfather nuggets, subsequent hits, consecutive hits. That all let's give him carte blanche and he can have as much money as he wants. doesn't exactly work that way, especially since Vietnam. The Vietnam War was too recent memory. Nobody wanted to finance it. So he punted up his own 8 million. And by the way, Brando knew that he was ponying up his own money and still demanded, yeah, 4 million or 5 million, whatever it was. So, and you know, troubled says he's so used to it. He was so irritated by Robert Evans from the Godfather and for godfather to he had carte blanche. He said, No Robert Evans know this. But for this war movie, studios just didn't want to finance it. What can this was a very, very deep discussion, and I hope it wasn't too deep for our listeners, who perhaps wanted something a little more leisurely or a little more polite. But, you know, I think there's many asides that can still revolve around this movie, the production itself, the film itself, that the the acting and some of the iconic segments and imagery that to this day, people still value and are pondering on to younger generations about how just significant it is to viewers and to people. He Even, maybe or not big film pets?
Ken Tabacchi :Yes, for sure. And I'll also a top 10 movie of all time deserve such a treatment.
Michael Green :And I'm going to check out the AI to see how that works for every year or every two years or five years, to see what, what how their system is and what gets pumped up and what gets pumped out. I'm also curious of the criteria itself. You know, is it like sort of this general consensus, or, you know, something I like to look into?
Ken Tabacchi :So, I wonder what movie we're gonna review next. Hopefully, we'll have some comments that will lead us down that path
Michael Green :would love it. We could use the help folks. We would like some feedback because you know, I make mistakes and sometimes I forget to cut the mistakes that I make. But then I'll own up to it. And it's important that we know those things, you know, because listeners out there like screaming while we get things wrong, and they're just like, really, how did you not know this detail or That it was in that movie.
Ken Tabacchi :That was, how many brain farts have we suffered?
Michael Green :Okay, so I got one last segment. And we're going to alternate between Roger Ebert and Gene Cisco for the balcony archives with Cisco neighbor. And I wanted to play an audio clip from Jean Cisco's mini review of 1967. No, and we're going to continue that. onward. When we're, when there's a movie that we have for discussion for an episode, I'm going to take a reel, you're gonna play the one from that movie that we discuss whether it'd be an audio form or in text form from the radio. So for this one, it's gene Cisco. So let's have a listen.
Gene Siskel :This is an actual picture that simply a lot of fun most of the way, even though it doesn't add up too much, not a ringing endorsement, but I like it. This is a very big film that tries to say a lot of conventional things about the war about the arrogance of our war effort. That part of the film is very colorful, impressive. Sometimes even memorable. But Apocalypse Now is also after a much bigger target nothing less I think than a speculation on the nature and source of good and evil in the world how the work came about. And that score I think it fails completely the Brando character who we wait for two hours to meet has nothing to say. And we walk out of Apocalypse Now wondering, what's the big deal?
Michael Green :dismissive much?
Ken Tabacchi :You know, I mentioned that in the novel, you don't hear much from Kurtz either. It's all about what people say about him, their impression of him. We don't get to judge his character. We only get to see how he is affected other people. So in that sense is true to the novel. He may feel it doesn't work in the in the script, but I respect that decision. Okay,
Michael Green :like by Coppola, and this is one of the more heated debates that they had watched the folks if you if you're not a follower yet on Instagram, the full clips there, and Roger Ebert, let them have it and you know, very, very wide view or difference of view on this movie? And, but overall, do you think it's a fair viewpoint to have?
Ken Tabacchi :Yes, you could say that. However, I don't think it detracts. There's enough powerhouse performances. I tend to watch movies for directors not necessarily for actors sometimes. My favorite actor appears at any day Lewis appeared in anything. A Cheerios commercial. I would watch that damn thing. Okay. But generally, I tend to follow who directed I don't care who accident he
Michael Green :likes it. He likes life, sir Hill. Yeah.
Ken Tabacchi :Can I taste your Cheerios?
Michael Green :Before we had your Cheerios? Hard, eat them up. Yeah, that's, that's a very good point. I mean, I looked at sometimes Cisco Jean Cisco would have such a passionate view about something that he would resort to being a bit of a bully, and he would just basically it's an insult to his intelligence that someone would be on the complete opposite side. When it comes to their viewpoint of how they felt about this
Ken Tabacchi :was the great thing about Siskel and Ebert. There you go.
Michael Green :They were not always in alignment. And Nope. And you know what we were entertained can because my dad would watch it every Sunday. And my to really, yeah. And I remember this, I would try to catch most of it with him. He used to calm Cisco and DP for some reason. I don't know why, but, and then I would always hear them arguing and that was the entertainment that was our reality show at the time was to see unscripted arguments happen and they didn't cut it.
Ken Tabacchi :It was a respectful discussion. And no, it wasn't like today's arguments
Michael Green :that are riddled with that are
Ken Tabacchi :riddled with personal attacks.
Michael Green :Sure, and thanks for taking The time my man and I thought I'd say to our listeners out there that do yourself a favor if you're unsure of what to rent, or watch this weekend. Most likely you can do wrong by renting a Francis Ford Coppola film. Except, jack. I'll say no more. Did you see jack?
Ken Tabacchi :did not tell you jack.
Michael Green :You don't know jack. Just don't see jack. Okay.
Ken Tabacchi :Yeah, definitely can't go wrong with this cut of the film. I think it's the I think it's the best. I think it is the final. It's the right one. It's perfect.
Michael Green :Okay, and here we are wrapping another one up. Appreciate the time. Well, a fun one and a deep dive Ken. Thanks a bunch.
Ken Tabacchi :As always great to be here.
Michael Green :Looking forward to the next one. And to those who perhaps are unsure of what Ken's wearing right now. I believe it's pajamas that again, it could be something else.
Ken Tabacchi :wearing clothes. What?
Roger Ebert :Really a bizarre scary one to have you think what total disregard that shows for the country that they're in the juxtaposition of details there was typical of the whole movie. The patrol boat the army mission secret instructions and then Mick Jagger sing and I can't get no satisfaction and the kid waterskiing through enemy territory. A couple of was trying to do an apocalypse now is betray the insanity of the war by showing American culture and all of its artifacts reduced to total impotence by the alien jungle, and J. Now this is my number one film for 1979. I find it listed nowhere whatsoever on your list. You're good reader. Why is that?
Gene Siskel :Well, I like the picture. The first Maybe thirds of it a lot for the very reasons that you picked on in that sequence. If we can water ski and splash people as casually as that kid was doing then why not drop bombs on him too? I mean, it's just a logical extension. Coppola makes the point well, in the movie we journey up river to Marlon Brando something special is going to happen because it's two hours to get there. I found the last 20 minutes of the picture just lost it. I got to Brando I found out nothing new. I didn't like the character. I didn't care about what was going on there. It was seemed confused to me. I was let down the film split off into two parts for me.
Roger Ebert :Well, I could defend Apocalypse Now on the basis of its first 90 minutes, I would put it on my best 10 list. But apart from that, I've defended the whole film on this program twice before I'll defend what Brando says on what he does. I've seen the film twice. I've listened to the soundtrack a couple of times. Brando speech at the end of this film does a very good job of explaining exactly why we were in Vietnam and why we didn't win that war. I think it's a very good speech. I would defend it and I'll stand behind my show.
Gene Siskel :I think the first part of the film explains it well enough. And I think the last part adds virtually nothing except confusion. Right? We haven't convinced each other yet. Not yet.